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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2004 :  07:39:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings brother Robert and all who view this thread,

Peace to all!

Here are the main questions that I have put forth repeatedly concerning "serving two masters" and it's relation to the First commandment yet nobody has thus far been willing to give them the attention they deserve. Many on this list assert that being a Citizen of a 4th KINGDOM or 1 Samuel 8 political system "like the nations" is a breach of the first commandment as well as serving two masters. If this theory be true we run into some serious problems that need addressing. I will out line them below:

1. Paul, the Roman Citizen

If we are to believe what the Bible says about Paul being a "Pharisee the son of a Pharisee" (Acts 23:6) then we should expect him to know much about the Torah. We know that Paul was a Roman Citizen and definitely exercised this status. Acts 23:23-31 has the Roman garrison send more than half its troops (470 soldiers to escort one man) from Jerusalem to Antipatris. Reading about Paul's Roman Citizenship leaves a couple of nagging questions which need to be addressed if we are to seriously consider that being a CITIZEN is serving two masters.

Taking Paul's claim to be 'one who up holds the Torah and excelled in matters concerning the Law' as well as being a "Pharisee the son of a Pharisee" we need to address the obvious:

A. If being a CITIZEN is serving two masters as well as a breach of the first commandment, why did not Paul, one who upholds and excels in matters of the Law, know this error?

B. How could Paul claim to be both a Citizen of Heaven as well as a ROMAN CITIZEN and not be breaching the Law he was such an expert of?

C. If Paul was chosen for a special purpose as he puts it to "preach Christ to the Nations" don't you find it odd that Christ himself would not have told Paul about his glaring misunderstanding concerning CITIZENSHIP?

2. Samuel, the righteous and respected Judge of Israel

By now we are very familiar with 1 Sam 8 wherein the Israelites agree to a King "like the nations". Samuel gives them a detailed
list of burdens this KING will heap on them. Never the less, the Israelites agree and once YHWH ruins their crops in anger they realize their error. After they see this they cry to Samuel for advice on how to get out of this mess. This brings us to 1 Samuel 12:19

19. All the people then said to Shmuel, "Pray on behalf of your servants to YHWH, your Elohim, that we not die; for have added evil upon all of our sins, to request a king for ourselves."
20. Shmuel said to the people FEAR NOT. You have done all this evil - BUT do not turn away from following YHWH, rather serve YHWH with all your heart. 21 Do not turn away for pursuing futilities that cannot avail and cannot rescue, for they are futile. 22 For YHWH shall not forsake His people for the sake of His great Name; for YHWH has sworn to make you for a people unto Him. 23 And I, also- far be it from me to sin against YHWH and refrain from praying on your behalf; rather I shall instruct you in the good and proper path. 24. Only fear YHWH and serve Him faithfully, with all your hearts, for look at how much he has done for you. 25 But if you act wickedly, both you and your king will perish..

Now a few obvious questions come to mind when reading the passages above.

a) If being subject to a 1 Sam 8 style KING 'like the nations' is serving two masters how can Samuel tell them (after they selected the King) NOT to turn away from YHWH, rather serve YHWH with all your heart, and only to fear YHWH and serve him faithfully??.... If your view of the first commandment if correct, this is impossible and a huge contradiction on Samuel's part.

b) If serving two masters is as you say it is, then why did not Samuel, who is a respected Judge of the Law and one who 'shall instruct the Israelites on the good and proper path', know this version of the first commandment? Samuel would have been in grave error to tell them to continue to both serve YHWH as well as the 1 Sam 8 style king 'like the nations'.

If you are correct then this advice to the Israelites of serving both YHWH and the 1 SAM 8 KING "like the nations" seems to me a huge contradiction and a serious flaw by Samuel (who BTW has a direct, personal connection to YHWH which is evidenced by his calling YHWH to come and destroy the crops).

3. Escape from BONDAGE and the destruction of the 4th Kingdom

a) When did Daniel 11:45 come to pass as it defines the end of the 4th ROMAN Kingdom? I still see the 4th Kingdom operating.

b) When did Daniel 12:1 come to pass as it says "at that time your people will escape"?


In closing we have two Israelites who had direct connections to both YHWH and Yahushua in Paul and Samuel. If serving two masters and the first commandment demands no CITIZENSHIP, then both of these important Bible men are in serious error at the root of their ideology. Also, concerning the escape from BONDAGE, we have some verses above that deal directly with the circumstances concerning this issue.

I look forward to the answers of these above questions by those
who assert that participating as CITIZEN is a breach of the First Commandment as well as serving two masters.

Peace to all,
Steve

God is Love
Senior Member

uSA
53 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2004 :  20:00:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Good evening, Baktol,

In Paul's case, it is his Roman citizenship which spared him from the whipping rack. This doesn't end the danger for Paul, however, as I'm sure you're aware.

Saul was appointed by YHWH Himself, and only upon the Israelites adamant requests to do so. YHWH did not want to do this, as He wanted the Israelites to give Him allegiance exclusively. However, YHWH told Samuel to listen to their wishes after warning them what would transpire if they did acquire a man for king like the rest of the nations. Samuel was merely doing as YHWH commanded him, thus, he was not contradicting the commandment given him, he was following a command given personally to him from YHWH. Also, King Saul's laws were not to conflict with YHWH's laws. However, once again, man's imperfection would show itself, and the reasons why YHWH wanted the Israelites to follow only Him, and not a man, as King, became apparent in time.

On Daniel, the last king of the north is yet to rise. Perhaps it is the Middle Eastern trouble, the war on "terrorism", who knows for sure? There likely is more to come. The previous king of the north was the Soviet Union.

Michael has been "standing" for some time now. When he "stands up", however, is another thing. That is yet to come, hopefully soon.

While I see some potential value in being a state Citizen with no federal contracts marking one's hand, I see no value in being a U.S. citizen. Following Laws that are in synch with YHWH's Laws makes sense to me. However, when there are Laws which are contrary to the Laws of our Father, that is where the problem is posed. Of course, being a servant of our Creator should always come first in any situation. If we can live a life without serving man as a sovereign over us, and serving only our Father in such a way, I see that as being preferrable to any other stance.

Perhaps this is not the response you were looking for seeing as you wanted to hear from someone that believes citizenship in a kingdom of man is a breach of the first commandment. I personally think it depends on what King you serve, and what that King's Laws are based being what matters.

Freedom, Love and Peace to you and yours!



Mount Fuji----"without equal"
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Lewish
Advanced Member

uSA
496 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2004 :  21:09:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello Batkol,

I have just yesterday come upon some information I find very interesting. Especially in light of your quote
quote:
1 Sam 8 wherein the Israelites agree to a King "like the nations".


That information is: the word "nation" did not exist prior to the publishing of Daniel Webster's first dictionary.

If this information is in fact correct, then how do you translate 1 Sam 8? It could certainly change the meaning of the verse.

Very curious information.

Peace,

Lewis
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2004 :  20:40:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Lewis,
Thanks for the info. I would then not translate the word Goyim into nations but rather keep it in it's original meaning. In context for 1 Sam 8 it would be a non-Israelite government structure. It all amounts to the same thing in that the Israelites requested a GOVT structure "Like the Goyim" as opposed to the one they currently had (there was no king in Israel then and every man did whatever he thought was right).

What I find interesting is that Samuel tells the Israelites to continue to follow YHWH even after they have chosen the 1 Sam 8 style KING. That is a pretty grizzly list of things to expect from a KING in 1 Sam 8 , yet in spite of that accepted list, Samuel instructs the Israelites to continue to serve YHWH.

If serving both YHWH and a 1 Sam 8 KING is really serving two masters, then why didn't Samuel know this? Let's not forget that this Samuel was trained in the Law from a child as well as having a direct connection to YHWH.


God is Love,
I agree with most everything you say. Michael has had lots of assignments but I agree with you that 12:1 has not been fulfilled as well as the destruction of the 4th Kingdom. As for Paul .... well his story is self explaining. He was both a ROMAN CITIZEN as well as a Citizen of Heaven. Notice being a ROMAN CITIZEN did not keep him from being a Citizen of Heaven.

Peace to you all.

Steve

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Mary
Regular Member

uSA
48 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2004 :  10:20:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello everyone

Pardon me for my ignorance. I can find where Paul admits that he is a pharisee, and I can find that he agrees to being a roman, however, I cannot seem to find where he claims that he is a citizen of heaven.

Could someone please point me to the verse where he states this.
Thank you for any help I may receive.

Mary

Psa 25:4 Shew me thy ways, O LORD; teach me thy paths.
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2004 :  12:17:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Citizenship in Heaven: Phil 3:20; Eph 2:19

Philippians 3
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;

Ephesians 2
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,


Edited by - BatKol on 05 Apr 2004 13:44:59
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member

uSA
833 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2004 :  07:13:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings and salutations in the name of the King, brother Steve and brothers and sisters of this Ecclesia:
Peace be unto the house.
Hope everyone had a meaningful Passover and that their remembrance of their trip out of bondage [Egypt], the Feast of Unleavened Bread, is going well. We must keep in mind that it was not an easy 'trip' for the ancient Yisra'elites so it probably will not be easy for us either; in fact most will look at us and ask, "did you bring us here to die? ...we should have stayed in bondage" [Egypt].
First of all, let us remember, we are not told to emulate Paul, though we will attempt to deal with him in a later post, Yahweh willing; we are told to follow the Anointed One, and Yahushua said:
If the world2889 hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world2889, the world2889 would love his own: but because ye are not of the world2889, but I have chosen you out of the world2889, therefore the world2889 hateth you. Yahu’chanan [Iohn] 15:18-19
G2889 – kosmos
Thayer’s Greek Definition:

1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government

My kingdom is not of this world2889: if my kingdom were of this world2889, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. Yahu’chanan [Iohn] 18:36b
Now that we know what “world” He could be talking about here, let us look at the word “of”.
Webster’s 1828 Dictionary of American English
OF
, prep. ov. [Gr.] 1. From or out of; proceeding from, as the cause, source, means, author or agent bestowing.
Okay, so what is a “kingdom”?
Dr Strong tells us that it is, (concretely) a realm (figuratively or literally).
Webster’s 1828 Dictionary of American English
REALM
, n. relm. [L. rex, king, whence regalis, royal.] 1. A royal jurisdiction or extent of government… 2. Kingly government
Thayer’s Greek Definitions tells us this regarding kingdom:
3) used in the N.T. to refer to the reign of the Messiah
Webster’s 1828 Dictionary of American English
REIGN
, v.i. rane. [L. regno, a derivative of rego, regnum.] 1. To possess or exercise sovereign power or authority; to rule; to exercise government

Noah Webster tells us the etymology [the humble beginnings] of this word:
KING'DOM, n. [king and dom, jurisdiction.] [Ibid.]
With this knowledge we can now extrapolate what Yahushua, Anointed Counsellor, meant when He said this:
The "world"
is not the author or bestowing agent
of His Kingdom [Jurisdiction], it appears to have come from a Higher Authority.
We are only trying to establish what the Wonderful Counsellor seems to have been telling us, that we may compare it to what Paul appears to have said and done.


fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL.

Edited by - Oneisraelite on 06 Apr 2004 08:12:47
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BillM
Regular Member

USA
28 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2004 :  12:03:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Paul, would have followed the Talmud more than the Torah. The Talmud was what Christ condemned.
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2004 :  14:15:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings Bill,
The "Talmud" as it is called was not in existance during Paul's time.
A Jewish history site states "over a roughly 20-year period between 200 and 220 C.E., Judah Ha-Nasi created a veritable constitution, an authoritative guide to Jew­ish law for judges and teachers to use".

The scribes and pharisees could not have been teaching Talmud because Yahushua himself said in Matthew 23:2-3 "The scribes and pharisees sit in Moses' seat. All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do, but do ye not after their works: for they say, and do not."

The Talmud as such is a much later work than the Jews claim and it is clear from the verse above that it was not taught in the Temple (unless you are asserting Moses' seat being the Talmudic rule). Yahushua's problem was that they did not even follow the Law they themselves were teaching.

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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2004 :  15:28:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings brother Robert, sister Kathleen and brother Kevin (and all else),

Pleased to hear the Pesach is going nicely. It has been great here as well. I have been looking into your last post and I have a few points concerning the phrase "of the world". You bring up some very good items but when I plug your formula into the phrase "of the world" in other places I run into problems. Check this out:

John 17:12-16 Yahushua speaking about his disciples

"While I was with them in the worldG2889, I kept them in my name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee, and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the worldG2889 hath hated them, because they are not of the worldG2889, even as I am not of the worldG2889. (15) I pray not that thou shouldest take them out "of the worldG2889", but that thou shouldest keep them from evil."
Verse 15 presents a problem to your formula if "of the world" means belonging to a GOVT. Here Yahushua is praying that YHWH not take the diciples out of the world.

Romans 4:13 - For the promise, that he should be heir "of the worldG2889", was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

I am having a hard time making the formula work on this one.

Is it possible that perhaps 1 John 2:16 might be a more reasonable
formula that could apply to all the verses which have "of the worldG2889"?

Check this out:

1 John 2:16 - For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is "of the worldG2889 ".

It seems lust of flesh, lust of eyes and the pride of life are "of the world". This unholy trio of sin goes beyond GOVT CITIZENSHIP and can effect even those who claim to be "not of the word" by having no DL, SS#, etc.

Just some thoughts concerning what items might make up being "of the worldG2889". Just something to consider while we await your response on Paul.

Peace to all,
Steve

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BillM
Regular Member

USA
28 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2004 :  16:05:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The Talmud was a great part of Jewish society at this time. The Talmud or Oral Law was what Christ would speak from when he said ; You have heard it said (Talmud); but I say unto you. When Christ would refer to God's Torah , he would say ; The scriptures read or the word of God says.
A Jewish Christian brother has stated the Talmud was placed into writings 200 years before the birth of Christ; not all; some was placed into writings after his birth. The Pharisees created this oral tradition (600 b.c) from the Torah and Babylonian mysticism.
Our Lord stated to the Pharisee's , you have made my word to non effect;again thier constant use of the Talmud to the Torah.
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2004 :  16:46:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bill M,
What do you do with this verse:

Matthew 23:2-3 "The scribes and pharisees sit in Moses' seat. All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do, but do ye not after their works: for they say, and do not."

If the scribes and pharisees were teaching Talmud I seriously doubt Yahushua would be telling people "whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do". I also find it hard to believe that the risen Christ would appear personally to Paul and choose him for the task of preaching the Gospel to the Nations (HaGoyim) with Paul upholding the Talmud instead of the Torah.

Also, concerning your statement that whenever Yahushua said "ye have heard it said" it is from the Talmud. I went and checked this out and it is not true. Yahushua quotes directly from the Torah.

See here:

1st "you have heard it said" is Matt 5:21. This is concerning Ex 20:13

2nd "you have heard it said" is Matt 5:27. This is concerning Ex 20:17

3rd "you have heard it said" is Matt 5:31. This concerns Deu 24:14

4th "you have heard it said" is Matt 5:33. This concerns Num 30:3

5th "you have heard it said" is Matt 5:38. This concerns Ex 21:24

6th "you have heard it said" is Matt 5:43. This concerns Lev 19:18

None of the times that Yahushua said "you have heard it said" is from the Talmud but rather right from the Torah.

Peace,
Steve



Edited by - BatKol on 06 Apr 2004 17:19:55
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Oneisraelite
Advanced Member

uSA
833 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2004 :  19:55:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings and salutations in the name of our King, brother Steven and brothers and sisters:
Peace be unto the house.
In trying not to get too distracted here we will only say that ol' Noah Webster seems to have had the same problem in trying to nail down an exact meaning for world. HOWEVER, tucked in amongst all these definitions and examples is at least one interesting tid-bit [at least it is to us]. We have bolded and underlined it for easier discernment.
WORLD, n. [This seems to be a compound word, and probably is named from roundness, the vault; but this is not certain.]
1. The universe; the whole system of created globes or vast bodies of matter.
2. The earth; the terraqueous globe; sometimes called the lower world.
3. The heavens; as when we speak of the heavenly world, or upper world.
4. System of beings; or the orbs which occupy space, and all the beings which inhabit them. Heb 11.
God--hath in these last days spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things; by whom also he made the worlds. Heb 1.
There may be other worlds, where the inhabitants have never violated their allegiance to their Almighty sovereign.
5. Present state of existence; as while we are in the world.
Behold, these are the ungodly who prosper in the world. Psa 73.
6. A secular life. By the world we sometimes understand the things of this world, its pleasures and interests. A great part of mankind are more anxious to enjoy the world to than secure divine favor.
7. Public life, or society; as banished from the world.
8. Business or trouble of life.
From this world-wearied flesh.
9. A great multitude or quantity; as a world of business; a world of charms.
10. Mankind; people in general; in an indefinite sense. Let the world see your fortitude.
Whose disposition, all the world well knows--
11. Course of life. He begins the world with little property, but with many friends.
12. Universal empire.
This through the east just vengeance hurld, and lost poor Antony the world.
13. The customs and manners of men; the practice of life. A knowledge of the world is necessary for a man of business; it is essential to politeness.
14. All the world contains.
Had I a thousand worlds, I would give them all for one year more to devote to God.
15. The principal nations or countries of the earth. Alexander conquered the world.
16. The Roman empire.
17. A large tract of country; a wide compass of things.
I must descry new worlds.
18. The inhabitants of the earth; the whole human race. John 3.
19. The carnal state or corruption of the earth; as the present evil world; the course of this world. Gal 1. Eph 2.
20. The ungodly part of the world.
I pray not for the world, but for them that thou hast given men. John 17.
21. Time; as in the phrase, world without end.
22. A collection of wonders. [Not in use.]
In the world, in possibility. [All the precaution in the world would not save him.]
For all the world,
1. Exactly. [Little used.]
2. For any consideration.

We cannot speak for anyone else but this nearly brought tears to our eyes!!
Exodus 15:18 Yahweh shall reign for ever and ever.


fellowcitizen of the commonwealth of Yisra'el, NOT the STATE OF ISRAEL.
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2004 :  21:31:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings brother Robert, sister Kathleen and brother Kevin,
Thanks for that comprehensive list. I am going to meditate on John 16:12-16 some more. I can see that even though the word worldG2889
is used through out the passage, I can see it takes on various meanings. I might even run it by some Greek language experts
to see what they make of the multiple meanings of the same word within the passage.

I am going to give my eyes a rest from this computer screen but I'll be back sometime Friday.. hopefully with a better understanding of this interesting passage in John 16.

Peace to you all,
Steve
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DanielJacob
Advanced Member

USA
138 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2004 :  12:23:31  Show Profile  Visit DanielJacob's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Greetings Steven, et. al.;

Peace be unto you all.

Brother Matthew Henry in speaking on the passage of Matthew 23: 1-7 as such:
quote:
We find not Christ, in all his preaching, so severe upon any sort of people as upon these scribes and Pharisees; for the truth is, nothing is more directly opposite to the spirit of the gospel than the temper and practice of that generation of men, who were made up of pride, worldliness, and tyranny, under a cloak and pretence of religion; yet these were the idols and darlings of the people, who thought, if but two men went to heaven, one would be a Pharisee. Now Christ directs his discourse here to the multitude, and to his disciples (v. 1) to rectify their mistakes concerning these scribes and Pharisees, by painting them out in their true colours, and so to take off the prejudice which some of the multitude had conceived against Christ and his doctrine, because it was opposed by those men of their church, that called themselves the people's guides. Note, It is good to know the true characters of men, that we may not be imposed upon by great and mighty names, titles, and pretensions to power. People must be told of the wolves (Acts 20:29, 30), the dogs (Philippians 3:2), the deceitful workers (2 Corinthians 11:13), that they may know here to stand upon their guard. And not only the mixed multitude, but even the disciples, need these cautions; for good men are apt to have their eyes dazzled with worldly pomp.

Now, in this discourse,

I. Christ allows their office as expositors of the law; The scribes and Pharisees (that is, the whole Sanhedrim, who sat at the helm of church government, who were all called scribes, and were some of them Pharisees), they sit in Moses' seat (v. 2), as public teachers and interpreters of the law; and, the law of Moses being the municipal law of their state, they were as judges, or a bench of justices; teaching and judging seem to be equivalent, comparing 2 Chronicles 17:7, 9, with 2 Chronicles 19:5, 6, 8. They were not the itinerant judges that rode the circuit, but the standing bench, that determined on appeals, special verdicts, or writs of error by the law; they sat in Moses's seat, not as he was Mediator between God and Israel, but only as he was chief justice, Exodus 18:26. Or, we may apply it, not to the Sanhedrim, but to the other Pharisees and scribes, that expounded the law, and taught the people how to apply it to particular cases. The pulpit of wood, such as was made for Ezra, that ready scribe in the law of God (Nehemiah 8:4), is here called Moses's seat, because Moses had those in every city (so the expression is, Acts 15:21), who in those pulpits preached him; this was their office, and it was just and honourable; it was requisite that there should be some at whose mouth the people might enquire the law, Malachi 2:7.

Note, 1. Many a good place is filled with bad men; it is no new thing for the vilest men to be exalted even to Moses's seat (Psalm 12:8); and, when it is so, the men are not so much honoured by the seat as the seat is dishonoured by the men. Now they that sat in Moses's seat were so wretchedly degenerated, that it was time for the great Prophet to arise, like unto Moses, to erect another seat.

2. Good and useful offices and powers are not therefore to be condemned and abolished, because they fall sometimes into the hands of bad men, who abuse them. We must not therefore pull down Moses's seat, because scribes and Pharisees have got possession of it; rather than so, let both grow together until the harvest, Matthew 13:30. Hence he infers (v. 3), “Whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do As far as they sit in Moses's seat, that is, read and preach the law that was given by Moses” (which, as yet, continued in full force, power, and virtue), “and judge according to that law, so far you must hearken to them, as remembrances to you of the written word.” The scribes and Pharisees made it their business to study the scripture, and were well acquainted with the language, history, and customs of it, and its style and phraseology. Now Christ would have the people to make use of the helps they gave them for the understanding of the scripture, and do accordingly. As long as their comments did illustrate the text and not pervert it; did make plain, and not make void, the commandment of God; so far they must be observed and obeyed, but with caution and a judgment of discretion. Note, We must not think the worse of good truths for their being preached by bad ministers; nor of good laws for their being executed by bad magistrates. Though it is most desirable to have our food brought by angels, yet, if God send it to us by ravens, if it be good and wholesome, we must take it, and thank God for it. Our Lord Jesus promiseth this, to prevent the cavil which some would be apt to make at this following discourse; as if, by condemning the scribes and Pharisees, he designed to bring the law of Moses into contempt, and to draw people off from it; whereas he came not to destroy, but to fulfil. Note, It is wisdom to obviate the exceptions which may be taken at just reproofs, especially when there is occasion to distinguish between officers and their offices, that the ministry be not blamed when the ministers are.

II. He condemns the men. He had ordered the multitude to do as they taught; but here he annexeth a caution not to do as they did, to beware of their leaven; Do not ye after their works. Their traditions were their works, were their idols, the works of their fancy. Or, “Do not according to their example.” Doctrines and practices are spirits that must be tried, and where there is occasion, must be carefully separated and distinguished; and as we must not swallow corrupt doctrines for the sake of any laudable practices of those that teach them, so we must not imitate any bad examples for the sake of the plausible doctrines of those that set them. The scribes and Pharisees boasted as much of the goodness of their works as of the orthodoxy of their teaching, and hoped to be justified by them; it was the plea they put in (Luke 18:11, 12); and yet these things, which they valued themselves so much upon, were an abomination in the sight of God. Our Saviour here, and in the following verses, specifies divers particulars of their works, wherein we must not imitate them. In general, they are charged with hypocrisy, dissimulation, or double-dealing in religion; a crime which cannot be enquired of at men's bar, because we can only judge according to outward appearance; but God, who searcheth the heart, can convict of hypocrisy; and nothing is more displeasing to him, for he desireth truth. [emphasis his]


His point here, I believe, very succinctly points out that we are to obey and do, as long as it is not in conflict with the law of the Eternal; I believe that is the point that is being made throughout scripture. We can observe and keep those laws of man that are not in conflict with the Laws of our Creator; our Father.
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FleeBabylon
Junior Member

USA
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Posted - 08 Apr 2004 :  00:03:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
DanielJacob,

A very interesting post you made above.

However, it is my understanding, that the Messiah said what He said, about about "obey...." not because we are to observe the added commandments and traditions of men, but rather because the scribes and pharisees were the ones who possessed the scriptures. It was not themn as it is in our day, where any man could have a copy of the Holy Scriptures.

The average person in that day, would only have access to the scriptures in the synagogue, and when hearing learned men and rabbis quote them.

We are commanded not to add to the Law- just as we are not to take away from it. It may not necessarily be wrong to do something in addition to what the law commands, but it would be wrong to impose such a thing upon others, as if it were a commandment.

"The right to life is the source of all rights--and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave."
-Ayn Rand
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berkano
Advanced Member

uSA
129 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2004 :  02:10:54  Show Profile  Visit berkano's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
1. Paul, the Roman Citizen


Paul did not declare himself a subject of the Roman crown. He was a citizen of a certain city. The word citizen in his time did not have the meaning it carries today. "Citizen" means "man of the city" and did not carry the implication of residence within a jurisdiction, as it does today.

In fact, Josephus records that several high Roman officials publicly declared that Christians were EXEMPT from Roman law, and the officials noted that they realized the Christians had their own laws and assemblies to govern themselves, and thus the Roman authorities were to leave the Christians alone, neither tax them, nor conscript them, nor police them, treating them as foreigners of their own sovereign nation. The Christians still referred to themselves as "citizens" of such-and-such city as applied, which did not give the Romans jurisdiction over them.

quote:
A. If being a CITIZEN is serving two masters as well as a breach of the first commandment, why did not Paul, one who upholds and excels in matters of the Law, know this error?

B. How could Paul claim to be both a Citizen of Heaven as well as a ROMAN CITIZEN and not be breaching the Law he was such an expert of?


Again, Paul's use of the word citizen was not a political use. "Citizen" as used in English does not mean the same as "citizen" as used by latin or greek speakers. It merely denotes nativity, not political allegiance. Paul made it very clear he had no allegiance to Rome in any way, shape, or form, in that he defied all demands for him to stop preaching and even took a whipping on this account. He declared himself an Ambassador for Christ, which is about as foreign to Roman government as he can get!

To call oneself a US Citizen, however, clearly violates the Law of God, because you cannot be a US Citizen unless you take an oath on penalty of perjury swearing allegiance to gods set up by men, the STATE.

quote:
C. If Paul was chosen for a special purpose as he puts it to "preach Christ to the Nations" don't you find it odd that Christ himself would not have told Paul about his glaring misunderstanding concerning CITIZENSHIP?


Paul did not misunderstand. "Citizen" in Paul's language does not carry the political weight of "Citizen" in modern English.

quote:
2. Samuel, the righteous and respected Judge of Israel

By now we are very familiar with 1 Sam 8 wherein the Israelites agree to a King "like the nations". Samuel gives them a detailed
list of burdens this KING will heap on them. Never the less, the Israelites agree and once YHWH ruins their crops in anger they realize their error. After they see this they cry to Samuel for advice on how to get out of this mess. This brings us to 1 Samuel 12:19

19. All the people then said to Shmuel, "Pray on behalf of your servants to YHWH, your Elohim, that we not die; for have added evil upon all of our sins, to request a king for ourselves."
20. Shmuel said to the people FEAR NOT. You have done all this evil - BUT do not turn away from following YHWH, rather serve YHWH with all your heart. 21 Do not turn away for pursuing futilities that cannot avail and cannot rescue, for they are futile. 22 For YHWH shall not forsake His people for the sake of His great Name; for YHWH has sworn to make you for a people unto Him. 23 And I, also- far be it from me to sin against YHWH and refrain from praying on your behalf; rather I shall instruct you in the good and proper path. 24. Only fear YHWH and serve Him faithfully, with all your hearts, for look at how much he has done for you. 25 But if you act wickedly, both you and your king will perish..

Now a few obvious questions come to mind when reading the passages above.

a) If being subject to a 1 Sam 8 style KING 'like the nations' is serving two masters how can Samuel tell them (after they selected the King) NOT to turn away from YHWH, rather serve YHWH with all your heart, and only to fear YHWH and serve him faithfully??.... If your view of the first commandment if correct, this is impossible and a huge contradiction on Samuel's part.


No contradiction here at all. Notice that if Samuel is a righteous King following the Law of Yahweh, then he acts only as a titular king, which is fine and dandy. We could all use a few righteous titular kings with no police power. To serve a righteous king is the same as serving Yahweh himself. But paying homage to a wicked king is the same as serving Satan.

quote:
b) If serving two masters is as you say it is, then why did not Samuel, who is a respected Judge of the Law and one who 'shall instruct the Israelites on the good and proper path', know this version of the first commandment? Samuel would have been in grave error to tell them to continue to both serve YHWH as well as the 1 Sam 8 style king 'like the nations'.


Nein! Samuel clearly instructed the people to serve and obey Yahweh. Having a king is not a conflict as long as one obeys Yahweh. Samuel was offering the people the chance to back out in a sense, by declaring to them the Law of God.

Jesus came and declared himself the King, yet Yahweh is God. Is it serving two masters to serve Jesus and the Father? No, because they are one in purpose and Law. The Law is our master, and God is the Lawgiver. He is above the Law, we are not. If God tells a man to visit with a family and serve them as a workman, is that serving two masters? God forbid! It is still serving the Father.

I hope these words help. There is nothing unscriptural about being indentured voluntarily to serve others, so long as one does not violate the Law of God in such service. Being a US citizen automatically violates the Law of God because it supports coveting [involuntary tax schemes], murder [pre-emptive war], deception [media propaganda, government funded], and a whole host of great evils that one must support to move from another allegiance to US citizenship.

Edited by - berkano on 08 Apr 2004 02:13:12
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berkano
Advanced Member

uSA
129 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2004 :  02:28:42  Show Profile  Visit berkano's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Nailing down the meaning of the word "world" is not difficult at all.

World > OE > Weorold > Weor, man + Old, old > "Old Man"

World means, the old man.

World > "Wear Old" > to wear old.

To be of the world is to grow old and die like the old man.

The "old man" is ha Shatan, the adversary.

Satan is already dead.

To be of the "old man" [world] is to be of ha Shatan and to become dead like him.

"He that liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

-- Berkano

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Robert-James
Advanced Member

uSA
353 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2004 :  17:08:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes, I do.
Poetic justice is scripture. A man will discern Truth only as his heart becomes circumcised. But the wicked shall never understand...as stated in Daniel 12. And the righteous {teachers} shall shine forth.
Great to see you here, Berkano.
An ambassador has diplomatic immunity. Everything has already been given us, we only need the Wisdom, to take 'it'. Well, maybe a little courage also.
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BatKol
Advanced Member

USA
735 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2004 :  21:50:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Greetings Berkano,
I got freed up earlier than I expected so here is a response to your post. I will deal with the meat of your points concerning Paul and then touch on Samuel.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Paul, the Roman Citizen
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Berkano: Paul did not declare himself a subject of the Roman crown.

Steve: Yes he did:

Acts 25:10 - Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgement seat,
where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest.

Only ROMAN CITIZENS had the privlidge of the LEX ROMANA. Paul was such a CITIZEN who submited to Caesar's JURISDICTION. How much clearer can this statement be concerning Paul's political standing?


Berkano: In fact, Josephus records that several high Roman officials publicly declared that Christians were EXEMPT from Roman law, and the officials noted that they realized the Christians had their own laws and assemblies to govern themselves, and thus the Roman authorities were to leave the Christians alone, neither tax them, nor conscript them, nor police them, treating them as foreigners of their own sovereign nation. The Christians still referred to themselves as "citizens" of such-and-such city as applied, which did not give the Romans jurisdiction over them.

Steve: Please provide the back up for your statement in Josephus. I want to examine it. Concerning your last scentance, Acts 22:25-29 shows clearly what happens when ROMAN JURISDICTION is enacted.

22:24 The chief captain commanded him to be brought into the castle, and bade that he should be examined by scourging; that he might know wherefore they cried so against him.

22:25 And as they bound him with thongs, Paul said unto the centurion that stood by, Is it lawful for you to scourge a man that is a Roman, and uncondemned?

22:26 When the centurion heard [that], he went and told the chief captain, saying, Take heed what thou doest: for this man is a Roman.

22:27 Then the chief captain came, and said unto him, Tell me, art thou a Roman? He said, Yea.

22:28 And the chief captain answered, With a great sum obtained I this freedom. And Paul said, But I was [free] born.

22:29 Then straightway they departed from him which should have examined him: and the chief captain also was afraid, after he knew that he was a Roman, and because he had bound him.

If Paul had not envoked this STATUS which enabled him access to the LEX ROMANA he would have been left to the Jews who wanted him dead.
For a nice list of privlidges afforded by ROMAN CITIZENS please see my opening post in the thread Paul, the ROMAN CITIZEN.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A. If being a CITIZEN is serving two masters as well as a breach of the first commandment, why did not Paul, one who upholds and excels in matters of the Law, know this error?

B. How could Paul claim to be both a Citizen of Heaven as well as a ROMAN CITIZEN and not be breaching the Law he was such an expert of?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Berkano: Again, Paul's use of the word citizen was not a political use. "Citizen" as used in English does not mean the same as "citizen" as used by latin or greek speakers. It merely denotes nativity, not political allegiance.

Steve: You don't see a clear political allegiance here?

Acts 25:10 - Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgement seat, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest.

You don't see this statement as a clear policitical allegiance??
Can it be any more spelled out than this verse above??
Many on this list would say this is a major traverse. I think Paul shows us this is not the case. This is Paul, the Ambassador of Christ making the statement above.

Berkano: Paul made it very clear he had no allegiance to Rome in any way, shape, or form, in that he defied all demands for him to stop preaching and even took a whipping on this account. He declared himself an Ambassador for Christ, which is about as foreign to Roman government as he can get!

Steve: Again, re-read Acts 22:25-26 and you will see that ROMAN CITIZENSHIP gives one access to the LEX ROMANA and privlidges unavailable otherwise. This is Paul, the Ambassador for Christ speaking here:

Acts 25:10 - Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgement seat,
where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest.

Some would say that this is a traverse of the first commandment as well as serving two masters. I say Paul did not traverse by making this statement and or by his political actions through out Acts 22-28. I don't think Paul could make a more political statement than the one in Acts 25:10.

Berkano: To call oneself a US Citizen, however, clearly violates the Law of God, because you cannot be a US Citizen unless you take an oath on penalty of perjury swearing allegiance to gods set up by men, the STATE.

Steve: Call it whatever you like but the fact is Paul's ROMAN CITIZENSHIP gave him access to the LEX ROMANA and access to Caesar's COURT which ultimately saved him from the 40 Jews who made an oath not to eat until he was dead. Bottom line is Paul the ROMAN CITIZEN was able to survive the Jerusalem incident and much more, get the Jews to finally depart him whereafter he "dwelt two years in his own hired house and received all who came in unto him, Preaching the kingdom of God, concern for the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him".



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
C. If Paul was chosen for a special purpose as he puts it to "preach Christ to the Nations" don't you find it odd that Christ himself would not have told Paul about his glaring misunderstanding concerning CITIZENSHIP?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Berkano: Paul did not misunderstand. "Citizen" in Paul's language does not carry the political weight of "Citizen" in modern English.

Steve: This statement carries much political weight:

Acts 25:10 - Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgement seat,
where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. Samuel, the righteous and respected Judge of Israel

By now we are very familiar with 1 Sam 8 wherein the Israelites agree to a King "like the nations". Samuel gives them a detailed
list of burdens this KING will heap on them. Never the less, the Israelites agree and once YHWH ruins their crops in anger they realize their error. After they see this they cry to Samuel for advice on how to get out of this mess. This brings us to 1 Samuel 12:19

19. All the people then said to Shmuel, "Pray on behalf of your servants to YHWH, your Elohim, that we not die; for have added evil upon all of our sins, to request a king for ourselves."
20. Shmuel said to the people FEAR NOT. You have done all this evil - BUT do not turn away from following YHWH, rather serve YHWH with all your heart. 21 Do not turn away for pursuing futilities that cannot avail and cannot rescue, for they are futile. 22 For YHWH shall not forsake His people for the sake of His great Name; for YHWH has sworn to make you for a people unto Him. 23 And I, also- far be it from me to sin against YHWH and refrain from praying on your behalf; rather I shall instruct you in the good and proper path. 24. Only fear YHWH and serve Him faithfully, with all your hearts, for look at how much he has done for you. 25 But if you act wickedly, both you and your king will perish..

Now a few obvious questions come to mind when reading the passages above.

a) If being subject to a 1 Sam 8 style KING 'like the nations' is serving two masters how can Samuel tell them (after they selected the King) NOT to turn away from YHWH, rather serve YHWH with all your heart, and only to fear YHWH and serve him faithfully??.... If your view of the first commandment if correct, this is impossible and a huge contradiction on Samuel's part.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Berkano: No contradiction here at all. Notice that if Samuel is a righteous King following the Law of Yahweh, then he acts only as a titular king, which is fine and dandy. We could all use a few righteous titular kings with no police power. To serve a righteous king is the same as serving Yahweh himself. But paying homage to a wicked king is the same as serving Satan.

Steve: What the Israelites agreed to in 1 Sam 8 is a KING with powers "like the goyim". You can read for yourself the horrible list of items the Israelites agreed to shoulder with this "KING like the goyim". However "Shmuel said to the people FEAR NOT. You have done all this evil - BUT do not turn away from following YHWH, rather serve YHWH with all your heart. I submit to you the evil was requesting and a greeing to a KING like the goyim, however Samuel said to continue serving YHWH while also being subject to your
crazy agreement you said "yea" to. Again, check out the list in 1 Sam 8 that they agreed to. Aside from these burdens of a 1 Sam 8 KING
"like the goyim" they were also expected to still serve YHWH.
A key item in this equation is that the Israelites did evil by requesting and agreeing to a KING "like the goyim". Now they had to bear the burden of a 1 Sam 8 KING as well as Torah.

I look forward to your response.

Peace to you,
Steve



Edited by - BatKol on 08 Apr 2004 22:42:05
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Robert-James
Advanced Member

uSA
353 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2004 :  19:45:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The Most High lives in the Now, yes, He was and shall Be, but Now is where we will find Him. I read 1 Sam 8 and all I see is THE VOICE OF THE PEOPLE. Today, this is the U.S. democracy, the DEAD one's, who have their dead, bankrupt ,PRETEND government...overseen by the QUEEN-POPE and IMF.
Acts chapter 2520, and the men of Israel formed their own government, in 1776. Hidden within this, was the fact, that all Lawful men can carry the government upon their shoulder.
So many have not Crowned Yahushuah King, and they, by their own words-actions, are ruled over by the Civil government of Rome. All hidden in plain sight, though few have eyes to see, Truth.
Israel...The Prince.
A Nation of kings and priests.
Seek the Higher ground, Zion.

Redemption from the evil King, be it Saul, Babylon, Rome, U.S., is available to those who seek Him, at all costs. Paid in full. By the Captian, and He shall bring many son's unto glory, through suffering. Albeit, many refuse Him to this Day...they prefer a worldly king, as Samuel gave them their hearts desire. Something called; free will.
I am an American.
of the Commonwealth of Israel.
and hell itself shall not prevail against His called out.

p.s. notice Samuel did not die, for Saul called his spirit forth, through a witch. Yahushuah became the Judge of the Living, and, the DEAD. Till Yahushuah burst forth from the grave, YHWH had His hands tied. Praise Him, son's, praise Him, the first begotten from the DEAD. Believe ye this?

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